How to Turn Unhappy Customers into Raving Fans (E104)

  • Joseph Lieberman
  • Digital Marketing Director at Antlion Audio

Bio:

Founded the first indie game PR company and went on to be the marketing guy behind a successful casual game publisher, ArcadeTown, which was purchased by Demand Media and IPOed in 2013. At Arcadetown Joseph grew an eCommerce game network and subscription service to 13.5 million visitors per month with 8 million newsletter subscribers.

Joseph joined Antlion Audio in 2016, where we revamped a small CE company with a generic Shopify template into what people think is a major audio CE player. Joseph’s initiatives have focused on drawing more earned media and PR attention to the company and it’s product line, focusing on growing the brand and allowing their distributors to take lead on sales, though direct sales still represent a sizable portion of the overall business.

Sponsors:

Links:

  • https://antlionaudio.com/
  • https://discordapp.com/invite/ZqDGNFg

Transcript:

Charles:                        00:00                In this episode of The Business of eCommerce. I talked with Joseph Lieberman about how to deal with unhappy customers. This is the business of e-commerce. Episode 104,

Charles:                        00:15                Welcome to the business of eCommerce they should have that helps eCommerce retailers start, launch and grow their eCommerce business. I’m your host, Charles Palleschi and I’m here today with Joseph Lieberman. Joseph is a director of marketing at ant audio where he focuses on growing the company for brand awareness and earned media. Is Joseph on the show today to talk about how to deal with unhappy customers? So, Hey Joseph, how are you doing today? Doing great. I’m a happy customer currently. Well, I’m happy to have you on the show. This is one of those topics that I love chatting about and not many people, not many people talk about this side of e-commerce and I feel like it, it’s one of those things as even the owner of the business or anyone customer service, you spend a ton of your time dealing with like the 1% of users that are unhappy. Most orders, you know, going out, things just work great. Hopefully. but those orders that don’t cause us like a reduction in time and everything. So how do you deal with this or what do you know, what are some best practice for this?

Joseph:                         01:18                So the, to be clear, to be clear, you know, as the marketing person in our company I, I view customer services of very different things and say maybe the customer service manager at our company who’s in the trenches as it were. Like he’s the one you know, emailing and talking to these people constantly and that kind of thing. So when it comes to the marketing side, my approach of dealing with might be a little different than, than the expectation of, you know, I need to send this guy an email. I need to, you know, get his shipping info. I need to figure out what the problem is. You know, those kinds of things. I’m thinking about more of the, the big scheme of things. What is going on here, right? What is caused somebody to be upset and what systems can we fix that will prevent this from happening again? So on the one hand unhappy customers are bad, but on the other hand, unhappy customers are good. And so I actually kind of want to talk about if I may that second part, which is how can unhappy customers be good? So rather than sort of get bogged down in the details of like, how do you fix a problem, I guess.

Charles:                        02:35                Yeah, I like that. I feel like some of the, some of the unhappy customers, they’re the ones that kind of push you further along to put like push you to do better, for lack of a better term though, where you, you have, you have to get better at dealing with certain issues and over time, you know, every time you set up all of these systems, it makes you in a long run better as a business owner.

Joseph:                         02:57                Yeah, absolutely. The not only not only creating a system to fix a problem, but the fact that a new problem, like a new unhappy customer from the marketing perspective is an opportunity for a story. Right? And in marketing and marketing your business, you’re always driven by these stories. How do you resolve somebody’s problem is a great story to tell and it is a great story for them to tell. So not only do you get better by building out these systems, but you can use the individual issue as a springboard for promotion if you handle it right. And that’s the key, right? And that’s why when we talk about customer service, this is massive time sink. This one guy ate up an entire day of my work. You know, if you look at it from that perspective, it’s really easy to just be like, it’s just not worth it.

Joseph:                         03:51                Just, you know, have returned the unit, whatever it is, have them send it back and we’ll just keep selling to the people who are happy. Right? And I think a lot of businesses fall into that trap because it is so morale braking to deal with problems, right? It’s a big time sink. It points out flaws in your systems, it points out flaws in your product. It’s, you know, unhappy people are generally angry and grumpy and just an unpleasant to deal with. And so it’s easier to just to write them off at aunt lion. Since I came on board, one of the things we’ve adopted or a bunch of strategies to really turn that around. Not to say that we had that mentality before, but to say beyond just fixing people’s issues, how can we turn somebody who is unhappy into somebody who is actually going to go out of their way to talk about us?

Joseph:                         04:48                And it’s so much easier to do that than it is to take somebody who’s initially happy and make them talk about you. And that’s the most fascinating thing that I’ve learned here is I’ve never heard this one. Yeah. So imagine this scenario just, I’m just gonna make up a scenario, but customer a, he purchases something. He gets it in the mail works great. Okay. He got exactly what he wanted, right? Customer B gets the product is a problem with it. Let’s just say it’s defective right on the box. The lemon unit happens in electronics, happens probably in everything. He’s mad. He makes a post about on Reddit now he doesn’t go out of his way to contact us. He’s just mad. Right? we’ve got a tool as an example of a thing we use, which is a, we use a company brand 24, but there are many like it it’s a basically a scraping tool that monitors people mentioning us.

Joseph:                         05:43                We check every single thing that somebody says about us. So we spot this on Reddit. Now I reach out directly. This is something I do as part of my marketing job. I reach out directly to this customer and say, Hey, I saw that you posted this thing. I’ll even do it on Reddit publicly. I’m so sorry you have a problem. Let’s figure out how to fix it and make it better for you. Now it seems like a really small, innocuous thing, right? But first of all, if it’s a public forum like Reddit, other people see that response. You start to getting known in your circles and you know, have read it in other public places like, Hey, this, you know, I’ve had other people, for instance, on Reddit, they’ll see a complaint and they’ll tag me in it before the brand’s 24 scraping tool gets to it, right?

Joseph:                         06:22                As an example. So you build up that reputation, but also now a customer is dealing not just with some flunky that they had to reach out to you. They’ve been proactively reached out to by the company. Right. And that is an experience. You don’t forget as a customer. Now you fix their problem, you get them working perfectly. And the next thing you know, they’re out there talking about the great experience they had. I have people apologize publicly about what they said about us, you know, fairly regularly. You know, as a company that sells tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of microphones you know, I’m not saying we get so many complaints that we are constantly having to, you know, put out fires. But I am saying that when problems arise more times than not, we walk away with a customer who is happier having dealt with us than they were or might have been if they just got a working product, which is really oxymoronic in a lot of ways.

Charles:                        07:20                Yes, that happens a lot because the customers that are happy, you tend not, you tend to write a review or you tend to go bug me on only if you’re surprisingly unhappy or somehow surprisingly positive, which is probably more difficult to do it right. You order a microphone and there’s not many other, like they get the microphone, so like they can’t get that much of a, unless you’re gonna send them like three of them, which are probably not going to do sometimes it’s hard to pleasantly surprise. Yeah. It’s hard to just like pleasantly surprised people and that, but when they’re pleasant, when they’re unhappy, that’s when you get the reviews. So the reviews are always skewed. I feel like in the negative direction,

Joseph:                         07:55                It’s always a fight. I mean, every eCommerce company is always a fight to get positive use. Right? It’s always, you’re always begging for change out there with your, you know, your, your hat.

Charles:                        08:04                Yup. Yeah. And it’s one of those things where a lot of the things that go wrong aren’t even your fault. There’s a lot of times, maybe it’s a manufacturer you’re selling their product is defective. Maybe it was just defective.

Joseph:                         08:13                We get it, we get, you know, we’ll get one star reviews because U S P S lost their package, right? Yeah. We completely outside of our control. Like I’ve had that. Again, I get that that makes you mad. Right. And it is you know, I certainly would validate your feelings as a customer. Like, Hey, I’m totally sorry this happened, but you know, it’s, it’s frustrating as a company to to be dinged for things that you did everything right. And still you’re getting that one star.

Charles:                        08:40                I’ve had that happen before where their ups driver backed into the box and crushed it and they gave it one star refill. I said, how, how do you feel like this was my fault? Like, I get it, I’m going to, I’ll make this right. But you know, one sec review, it feels a little aggressive. Maybe review, you know, ups with one star and not, you know, not my eCommerce site. So I’ve definitely had that happen before, you know, how it fails so

Joseph:                         09:04                That it does bring up the other side. Right. Which is a lot of times you don’t get to somebody quick enough and they’ve already left a review. How do you get them to edit it? You know? And that’s again where this, you know, I mean, what’s the ratio? I off the top of your head, what do you think the ratio is of people who buy something to leave a review? Right? How many sales you have to get to get one review? I’m guessing it’s

Charles:                        09:29                Probably way worse than 1%.

Joseph:                         09:31                Something like that. Yeah. I don’t know off the top of my head, I was actually just asking, but everybody listening probably can do some quick, you know, napkin math and figure it out for themselves is probably 1% or less. Yeah. Yeah. Which means getting somebody to change the review is literally worth a hundred or more sales. Right. And that’s the mentality you have to have going into this idea of customer service as marketing, right? Yes, it’s going to take you all day, but what is a hundred sales worth to you? Right? And so when it comes to finding this person in the wild as it were, right? The problem with something like Amazon is getting in touch with them is very difficult potentially. You know, you can send them an email, but when you’re connecting with somebody on Reddit or we have actually a live chat, right?

Joseph:                         10:26                It’s worth asking the question after you’ve solved the problem. Hey, just out of curiosity, did you write any negative reviews? It’s okay to ask this thing because you know, and then explain your position. Look as a small company, as a consumer, you know, as a customer focused company, you know, this is our livelihood. And you know, if, if you could change your review, it would be a great help to us and it just be honest and open and, and human. Usually if they’ve left a bad review and are in direct contact with you and you can fix that. If you just send blind emails to them, even after you fixed it, maybe sometimes, but a way less often than than you can get out of taking that extra time, that soul crushing extra time where you could be doing something better.

Charles:                        11:14                Yeah. It’s one of those things where I think the closer you are to the customer, the more likely they are to positive or respond to that. Right. Like I’ve done it before, even on the phone. I remember there was, there was one guy that I forget what happened and he left. I think it was like a one out of five he left. It was like a one or two star review and spend like hours dealing with this issue. When he said, all right, on five stars, I’ll upgrade you to a four instead. Okay, thank you. He wasn’t willing to go the full five and I think we’d like 100% like solid every issue. But he’s like, still, I want to be accurate. I’ll give you four. I’m like, this sounds fair. So you took, it took a lot. Like you said, it took like how hours of work to go from that to star to four star review and he literally put like edited and had a whole story.

Charles:                        11:57                He was this long block of text but it was very nice with him. Right. Because then he now he went out of his way. He didn’t have to do that. Right. Like at that point cause that’s the thing that now that you solve their problem, they don’t need to, they really don’t need to go back. They got what they wanted at this point and you’re just hoping and asking nicely. Hopefully you know it’s not begging at that point but it’s just nicely asking kind of, Hey if we were able to solve your problem, it would be great if you could go do this. Like you said, small company and it really matters to us.

Joseph:                         12:26                Yeah. I think that’s pretty accurate from my experiences as well, you know? Yeah. You’re not always going to be able to turn a one into a five, but even a one and two a four is such a massive change on, you know, for, you know, what, what is a, you know, what are your products, have, you know, how many reviews, you know, we, we sold a quarter million Mike’s or so and some of our products have a hundred reviews only, you know, some of them, like the newer one, the one I’m wearing right now, right is we have about 150 reviews I think on Amazon. So like one change of a one to a four is actually a pretty significant change as a percent. We could do that 10 times. It might actually increase our, you know, our 4.0 to a 4.2 or something.

Charles:                        13:11                Well another thing you don’t realize too is people looking at the reviews. Sometimes I’ve had it before. We’re we’re selling into, it was someone was buying quite a few units, like you know, like a hundred plus units and they were looking at the reviews and they brought up this review from like years before the Ash, someone that randomly just bought it. Like this is like very short little, and it was like a one star review and like three word review and they’re buying like a hundreds of units and they’re like, yeah. How about that review? Like how did you find like it’s on page like 12, like how did you dig through every review and find that one and just like, and they want to talk about that guy and like on the phone I want to know what happened. So it’s amazing how far people will dig and how much those reviews really matter. And it’s, it’s like shocking when you realize people are reading through all of these big customers usually.

Joseph:                         14:01                Yeah. And that’s, and I think at its soul, that’s why I’m unhappy. Customers are what I would call more valuable than a happy customer. Right. Individually they are way more important. And you know, to just keep hammering it home. Yeah man, it is the worst to have to deal with them. Like no doubt. Nobody wants to deal with an unhappy customer. But there worth so much more than an individual happy customer that it’s it’s just, it’s easier to turn a frown upside down, I guess, than it is to than it is to make somebody smiling. Grin. Yup. Like a Cheshire cat.

Charles:                        14:40                Well, how do you actually, what are some ways to actually make them happy? Cause at that point, I’ve been in situations before where somebody needed something for our particular date, right? Like it they overnighted something they needed for Friday and it came damaged by the the shipping company. Right. So like at that point, what do you, how do you, how do you turn that frown upside down? Like what do you, what are even the mechanisms

Joseph:                         15:04                Try, man. Yeah. So there are a lot of different types of problems. I think one of the things, one of these sort of systems and tools we talked about in the very beginning is to really understand what types of problems you’ll commonly encounter, right? And have a plan on for dealing with them like that. You can go to a, you know, if you’re a small company, you just, you know, like just a couple of people, then you can just wing it. As you get to be a larger company, of course you, you can’t just be like, yeah, sure, I’ll send you whatever, you know, I’ll send that priority international. It’ll cost $400, you know, to Serbia you know, so you need, you need to have a plan as to, you know, what is it, what does it worth and what are the likely issues that you’re going to encounter, right?

Joseph:                         15:51                So a shipping issue as an example, like some sort of hard deadline shipping issue. Well, first of all, if you’ve already missed the deadline, you’re screwed. Or like as a, there’s nothing you can do to make it up to that customer, right? You can do the best you can. You know, try to understand their plights and try to explain, you know, to the best of your ability that I, I, well I’ll say this, it’s always your fault. Ups runs it over, runs over your package. It’s your fault, right? Maybe not your responsibility to, to fix or rather, let me rephrase that.

Joseph:                         16:31                Let me, let me phrase it like this. It wasn’t, my fault is never a valid answer to an upset customer. Right. It’s not what they want to hear and it doesn’t help them in any way. It’s usually the fastest way to make some more obsession is saying it’s not somehow putting the falls on, you should, it wasn’t me, it wasn’t me. Like Jackie says. Yeah, yeah. That’s like literally wanna make some more upset say exactly that. Cause that’s how it goes. So the approach has to be in a situation where you can’t fix anything. I’m real sorry this happened. I’d like to make it up to you. What can I do? You know, put the ball in their court. Just like most negotiations, you tend to be surprised at what people will ask for. Usually it’s less than you’d offer. So I’m always a fan of just asking what it is they want.

Joseph:                         17:25                Not only do you, do, you then get to fulfill exactly what they want, but usually it’s, it’s less than UDV even be done to begin with. You know, so yeah, that’s, that’s probably the hardest scenario though, is a situation you simply can’t fix, right? You’ve missed the deadline. The wedding has happened. What are you going to do? They’re not going to have another wedding, you know? The more common things are like, you know, Hey, it arrived, damaged, broken. The quality wasn’t what I expecting or this or that, or the other thing. You know, sometimes it’s, sometimes it’s a situation where you can’t resolve it also in those situations. Right. Hey, you know, this thing was was not what I was expecting. I can’t change that, you know, necessarily what, you know, but you can be like, Hey, tell me what you were expecting.

Joseph:                         18:16                What can we do in the future to deliver that product to you? What is missing here? You know, so one, there’s a learning opportunity there. And two, really generally speaking, people just want somebody to talk to, right? They just want to tell people what they think. And again, usually if you can get to them before they write that review, you will prevent a negative review, right? You might not get a review. So I’ll just return it. And you can ask them for that. Hey, you know it’s, you know, it’d be a little bit diplomatic about it, but you know, so at the end of the day you’re basically saying, Hey, please don’t review our product. Based on this. I’m sorry you didn’t, you know, there was a miscommunication and we’ll do what we can fix it. And sometimes that might actually include changing the page, right. To be, to communicate better. You know, maybe, maybe you missed a detail, you know, be willing to accept that, Hey, maybe I messed up. Maybe the description wasn’t accurate enough and that confused this person and possibly other people. Right? So there, there again, we have that system that we can fix which is in this case, a description. I don’t know, I guess be creative I guess is is the the long story short here is, is don’t, don’t just send people canned responses.

Charles:                        19:35                Yeah. I think the canned responses also probably one of those ways. If you want to quickly piss them off, you can you can like, like sense the canned response they usually use like longer and they kind of have information that doesn’t really have to do with anything and that’s just not how people communicate. And you know, when you’re getting a canned response and it’s almost like they’re like, like just like pushing you off and you’re like, all right. Right.

Joseph:                         19:57                It is not a good experience to ever receive a canned response. Like, yeah, there are situations where it makes sense where like you know, you are, there’s just some sort of common thing that needs to be automated. We received your order, great canned response. We received your order. Exactly. It’s pretty simple. Here’s your tracking number. I expected even even the canned response of, Hey, we received your support ticket. Yup. Like, that’s fine. Right. I, you know, it explains how long it’ll take. For a real person to get back to you. That’s good. But if the, you know, canned, we receive your support ticket, email is followed by another canned response, which is followed by another candid response. You know, like, cause you know, in the back end of a lot of these customer service things, you know, somebody sends it in, somebody looks at it and they select the canned response, they, they click send right there and that’s, that’s the entirety of their interaction. My advice is to avoid that whenever possible.

Charles:                        20:51                You know, you mentioned getting to the users before they’re writing the review, like before they’re on Reddit, before they’re doing all that. What are some ways that you actually find, like how do you spot them faster, right? Because a lot of times you don’t know there was a problem unless you reach out to every single user and most don’t respond. Hopefully ones to have the issue do. But then what are some ways to actually get that before they erupt and kind of go into,

Joseph:                         21:19                So yeah. So what I mentioned earlier any tool to scrape your product or brand especially if you’re making a unique product like you know, ours is we scripted or mud Mike and every possible variation somebody could spell it right. That’s our product name. And if they’re saying that, it’s almost certainly about us, not always a negative, not usually negative in fact, but you know, that’s one example. So a scraping tool absolutely invaluable to us. The other side of it is so that lets you, lets you see basically the entirety of the internet almost in terms of people, people talking the other, of course social media directly. Obviously anybody tagging you, anybody you know, just keeping your eye on that. It’s one of those tasks that’s once a day, twice a day, you know, beginning of day, end of day, that kinda thing.

Joseph:                         22:11                Just double check social media for anything new. You don’t want somebody who’s doing overnight, for instance, on their problem. The third way is give the customers ample ways to reach out to you. So not just support ticket opening. But we have, I mentioned earlier, we have something called discord for those who are not gamers out there. Discord is a primarily gamer centric platform, but it’s basically just a live chat room, right? It’s staffed by a mixture of actual ant lion employees and a couple of volunteer moderators. And it gives somewhere someone to go almost 24 hours a day basically and get a response from somebody right before they get to the review before they get to the support ticket. A lot of times when we advertise it very heavily, go here, say what’s up and you can get live help. You know, I am there pretty much 24, seven know as long as I’m awake anyway. You know, I have it on my phone. I’ll answer people support tickets from bed basically, you know, like, Hey, somebody’s got a problem. This is not something that way it’s, you know, you, you, you reply. And sometimes that replies simply, Hey, it’s 10:00 PM and I’m currently in bed, but I will get to you tomorrow morning. That is a wonderful reply. By the way.

Charles:                        23:30                Yeah. So this is a live, so I’ve never actually, I’ve, I’m familiar with discord, but I’ve never heard of it used in this way. It’s essentially you’re just going to be at this point, a live chat room where all your customers can see each other as well. Like this. That’s right. That’s the of it. If you do it

Joseph:                         23:46                And you screw it up, everybody gets to see it. This is a spot area. All right. I like it. Let’s build an actual community around your business and product. Right? So our chat has 3000, 4,000 people in it. Most of them are not currently chatting. You know, usually there’s a handful of people talking about, I don’t know, e-sports or whatever it is that’s on their mind at the moment. And then you have a, you know, we have a separate room for support, right? Which gets about one message a day, frankly. But yeah, it’s all public and anybody can jump in with their opinions, but it also, it’s, it allows your community to help each other. It allows your business to be transparent. It’s super risky. Don’t get me wrong. Like if you can’t staff it, if you can’t keep that commitment up, don’t do it.

Joseph:                         24:37                Cause it’ll just make you look bad and it’ll give people a place to go. Like, it’ll become the exact opposite of what you want. It’ll become an echo chamber for negativity. And you cannot allow that. But it’s, this was our solution, right? Was we have the staff to do it. We can make this a positive environment and it totally works. 100% or X people are constantly coming into our, our chat and saying that it was a wonderful experience. Like, you know, they don’t use those words, they just, they’re just very appreciative. But the, you know, the gist of it is that they love the ability to go in and talk to the director of marketing and, you know, we were talking just before this started about audio stuff. People have audio problems totally unrelated to our product, right? Like, Hey, I want, this is probably my headphones.

Joseph:                         25:25                I’ll just be like, well, let me, let me, let me tell you about my opinions. I had to fix this, you know, like it’s just a great place for us to grow our brand reputation and turn those unhappy customers into people who literally hang out in our community and promote our products for us. Yes. It’s almost like you have your own private, I mean you mentioned Reddit earlier, it’s almost like your own private sub Sabritas about you that you guys not control but kind of moderate. You actually have a subreddit of all of that I think. Although it is pretty small, but which is not also not controlled by us, but it sounds like this discord, it’s interesting cause then people can just randomly, so you’re telling people, Hey, you have a problem with support. You can write a ticket, you can call this phone number or you can jump into our live group chat right here and just see what’s going on.

Joseph:                         26:20                And they can basically just watch other support tickets in real time at that. Yup. Yeah. They get to see the whole system works. Yeah. It’s, I’m not saying this is a, this is a, the next thing or the thing that anybody listening should do, but basically having as many ways to get in touch as possible and making them really visible. That discord link, if you go to our website, it’s right on the top of the page. It’s always on at the top of every single page. We’re actually going to be doing a site redesign here next month and it’s going to move to a sticky, a larger sticky icon on the bottom right?

Speaker 3:                    26:58                Sure.

Joseph:                         26:59                You know, normally where that support ticket goes instead of, you know, instead of pushing people towards writing a bland email to the bland CS team we want to get them involved actively into the community because of the response times quicker. Because usually, like I said, usually even if it’s not us, somebody will reply, right? There are 4,000 people there. Somebody’s gonna gonna be glance, glance down and say, Oh, Hey, I know, I know what your problem is. Or even just, Hey, you know, the staff doesn’t seem to be online right now, but you know, usually they ask for recording so please put a recording. And

Charles:                        27:34                So yeah, what I’ve kind of noticed about support is everyone, every requesting support has their own kind of way they want to. Right? It’s like some people want to talk on the phone or other people try their hardest and never talk on a phone. And then some people love live chat. Like everyone has their own thing they want and you kind of just need to be a little bit of everywhere, not because you’re trying to like, like you’re trying to decide, but just because you want to be where the customers want you to be. And some people, like I know with myself, I live, Chester’s not my thing. I either want to go email and go fully asynchronous or phone and fully synchronous. Everything that’s like in between is just like, like social media and live chat. I just, I’m not into,

Joseph:                         28:16                Oh, see, I’m, I’m, I’m the opposite. I say I take chat anytime I can and here’s why. The best thing about live chat is I can write a message, go to another tab, do a little bit of work, and come back to that message. And it’s usually much faster than say, sending an email, which might take 24 hours to get a reply. Right. and way less interruptive than making a phone call and sitting on hold or something or, you know, God knows what it’s usually quicker for me and lesbian to just continue my workflow. So that’s why I like chat as an example.

Charles:                        28:55                Yeah. It’s funny everyone, so even even on this with the two of us with completely different

Joseph:                         29:01                Completely different. Yeah. So it’s [inaudible] as a company, you gotta, you gotta be willing to embrace every possible strategy to get to that customer before they get to the review button.

Charles:                        29:10                Yeah. Well, in some people with some of the other day I think it was on Twitter at reply say you didn’t answer your phone. Like it was like, like after business hours and like they just called didn’t get an answer and the way they want to tell us that is on Twitter. And like, Oh, okay. I guess that’s how we’ll, I guess that’s how this person is communicating with us. And you like you said this, we have a tool here to monitor social media. And that kinda just popped up and said, Oh wow, there’s someone trying to call us right now apparently on this Twitter as a way we found out. So it’s just, it’s always interesting. And this is before they sent an email, before they did anything else, Twitter was literally the first thing they had.

Joseph:                         29:50                Yeah. And in the marketing world, I often, I often, sometimes, often, sometimes yeah, we’re going to say that I said that I often sometimes tweet to somebody to let them know that I’m sending them an email. Yes. And I feel, I feel really guilty every time I have to do that. But I know some people that use Twitter very often and use email very infrequently. And I only do it when I know it’s going to be somebody like that. Right. And usually I try to do it via DM as opposed to tweeting ad. But it’s still, yeah, it’s, it feels weird, right? Like, Hey, heads up, there’s an email coming your way. Don’t collect it.

Charles:                        30:27                Yeah. It was kinda like when you know, in the 1990s, when you emailed someone you’ve been following up with a phone call, it’d be like, Hey, I just emailed you, check your email. Yeah, yeah, I remember those days. Yeah. Those, those are good days. Yeah. So I liked that. Yeah. I like that concept of having a live chat. That’s something I’ve, I’ve seen obviously the one-on-one live chat that’s quite common, but having that kind of group community, cause I feel like a lot of people try to do this community thing of having like a for example, a lot of folks have like Facebook communities and there if you’re a large enough they’re okay. But very quickly I see kind of turns into this like ghost town where it’s just like, you know, why don’t you people at the company posting random marketing messages and nobody, it’s not really a community, it’s just

Joseph:                         31:08                No. Yeah. Nobody’s actually interacting with it. Yeah. It’s totally true. I fully recommend anybody dropping by our discord to see how we do it. If you’re interested. It’s totally open and yeah, it’s, it’s, I think, I think we do a good example of how you can use it. So feel free to join our community. Awesome. Just to learn,

Charles:                        31:27                I think I’m going to put a link to that in the show notes so people can check that out. So well, I think that’s super helpful. I’m going to a link to link to you guys on the show notes and definitely put a link to the chat room. People come in there and just say hi to you, I guess so that’s pretty awesome. Anything else? You kind of, any links we should leave? Any places people can find you.

Joseph:                         31:47                Well, we’re available@antlionaudio.com. We, if you need, you know, microphones that’s what we do. You’ve been listening to our product, the, a wireless microphone actually this whole time. So if you believe that you can’t get good quality audio out of a wireless Mike we’re here to tell you that’s not true. You can, but yeah, that’s all I really have to say. That’s my self promotion.

Charles:                        32:10                No, I love when people plug their own products and if people are watching the video, they can check it out. It’s cool little. I don’t, yes. I don’t know how to describe it on the video. You can see at Sal, that’s the sound of it. Leaving. It’s its post and coming back. I’ve never seen it before. And he did it for the first time when we’re talking before the show, and it was pretty neat. So they should people should definitely check out at least a video of this and see what you just did. That’s pretty cool. So thank you very much for coming on today. Oh, thanks for having me.

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